Posts by Disillusioned JW

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Hey, it doesn't take long to red my post. I made the long post for the benefit of others (JW lurkers).

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Hey minimus no one is forcing you to read my long posts. You don't have to read them if you don't want to. If you want brevity read an article in the most recent Awake! issue. Ha ha.

I believe in being thorough. As a result I quoted all of the sections in the book that I considered relevant to claim of the anti-higher education message in the book (which is really not many sections). This topic thread is about remembering Rutherford, and for me the best reliable way to learn about Rutherford and draw attention to him is by reading his literature, analyzing it, and then quoting the literature. I no more than very little interest in hearsay claims about Rutherford. As Thomas Paine pointed out his book "The Age of Reason" hearsay testimony is very unreliable (or at least not provable). Also it is not admissible as evidence in the court of law in the USA, though a tribunal might accept it.

The thing is, a number of the quotes are true (or at least mostly true) about college, such as certain classes teaching evolution as a fact. But hey, evolution really is a fact. Likewise some of the claims about what is taught in theological seminaries (but not the fundamentalist ones) are true, about the ministers stating disbelief in parts of the Bible. That is because much of the Bible has been shown by scholars to not be literally true. But Rutherford tries to make it seem that the claims made by professors about evolution and the seminary ministers claims about the parts of the Bible are false when in fact they are true (except that Rutherford twists some of the professors claims about evolution and some of seminary ministers claims about the Bible).

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

Phizzy, I thought my post made clear that I agree that the WT was describing not the resurrection of the person, but rather the creation of a copy/clone, including an implanted copy of the memory of the person. But here is something interesting: a number of science fiction stories of the "Outer Limits" TV show have the same idea, but with a human scientist making the recreation instead of God. In the stories there is sometimes a happy ending, providing nothing goes wrong in the replication process (and one tries to kill the recreated person). In the stories with the happy endings the ones who are near death are hopeful of being recreated-resurrected. After they are recreated they are happy about being recreated and think of themselves as being resurrected. Usually the recreation is in a robotic body, but sometimes it is in a human body. The endings tend to be happy when it is in an human body, and when a android gets recreated as an android. Maybe the Sci-Fi writers of these stories got the idea from the WT doctrine of resurrection.

Bobcat makes a good point that the body we currently have is a copy (but with modifications) of the body we had several years ago, and the WT mentions essentially that in their literature. I wish I could remember which specific book where the WT says such very explicitly. He is also right about what he said of a PBS Nova episode; I know that because I saw the same episode and that segment of the episode about the transporter stuck in my mind. However that episode also dealt with the philosophical issue of whether the copy was or wasn't the same person as the original. Philosophers are not in agreement in this matter.

We experience an ongoing process of cellular death and recreation/copying. We are thus already a clone of a prior version of our self. In as sense, we have already been recreated/resurrected! Maybe the key part of us which we identify the most with is the data of our mind and software program of our mind, along with the characteristics of our fleshy body. Maybe some of us can be satisfied with the idea that our data and mental program will be preserved and later implanted into a body which has a very close resemblance to our current body, with the newer body becoming youthful and perfect over time. Many of us, if a part of our body fails are willing to receive an organ transplant from another body (one of a different person) to replace failed body part. Once it is inside their body, they likely consider it a part of themselves. The hair I have on my head is not the same hair I had several months ago; is a copy of the hair I formerly had (though in many cases grown from the 'same' hair root (or skin cluster?). The outermost skin cells I have are not the ones I had months ago, for my prior ones have been sloughed off and are now dead and decayed. When my body gets wounded, including severely wounded, I very much appreciate it when it heals. The healed portion I consider to be a part of me, even though it is only a copy of that which had become damaged.

If I could believe in such a re-creation/resurrection (in sense of the data/characteristics of myself being preserved and used to make a copy of my whole being) I might could be satisfied with it since I would know that my knowledge and talents and personality would be preserved and that together they would have the opportunity to try to accomplish that which I will not have accomplished prior to my death.

I don't think the term Doppelganger is appropriate for the WT concept of resurrection due to two reasons. My impression is the same as that stated in the following quotes from Wikipedia. 1) "In fiction a fiction and mythology, a doppelgänger is often portrayed as a ghostly or paranormal phenomenon and usually seen as a harbinger of bad luck. Other traditions and stories equate a doppelgänger with an evil twin." The WT resurrection does not have any of those characteristics. 2) "A doppelgänger is a biologically unrelated look-alike, or a double, of a living person. [See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelg%C3%A4nger .] If by "living person" one means the person who was copied would still exist during the same time (or part of the time) the copy exists, then that is different from the WT idea. In the WT the one who dies no longer exists as a person at the same the copy exists. Instead the surviving remains of the dead person is likely used as some of the materials in the construction of the copy; with the rest of the material having already become part of something else (such as having been incorporated into the body of an organism which ate it). One won't see the dead person's body lying around at the same time one sees a living copy of the pre-dead person.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

In my post in which I quoted the Children book I neglected to actually quote what the book said about college and other higher education.

Ch. 1 of the book in talking about the fictional characters (before they learn of the WT books) regarding their education says: "John Alden had reached the age of sixteen years. Eunice Rogers was fourteen years of age. Both had completed the study course in the country public school. They must receive further education. John was sent away to college. Eunice entered a seminary for young ladies. A four-year course of study had been planned for each one of them." That is interesting that they are said to go to advanced schooling at such young ages. Later in the chapter the book describes the characters experience of their higher learning and portrays it in a negative light (at least from the JW point of view).

Note it says the following.

"Eunice, ... For four years you have been closely associated with those who are given over to the lighter things of life. We both can well bear testimony to the fact that the schools for both men and women instill into the mind of the pupil the theory of evolution of the human race, substituting that tradition proclaimed by such men as Darwin for the sure Word of Almighty God. You have withstood that seductive influence and have disregarded the sneers and reproaches that have fallen upon you and to which all persons who manifest their belief in the inspired Scriptures are subjected. I noted at the study this morning that you still firmly hold to the early teachings we have received from our parents in our homes. You have withstood the influence

17

of the modern educators, who would turn young men and young women away from the early instruction of their parents. Truly, then, you have been and are 'Blessed with victory'.

...

You have told me that you were required to attend religious service while at the seminary; that the congregational meetings, and the Sunday morning service in particular, were a dress parade having the earmarks of a social gathering; that the minister seldom mentioned the Bible and never made any attempt to explain it, but talked chiefly of evolution, politics and social problems, quoting liberally from books of worldly writers, and that the entire tendency was to discredit the Bible. Well do I understand and appreciate what you have told me. A like condition exists at all colleges, I believe. Such were the conditions at the college where I have been attending for the past four years. Almost all of the professors, including the ecclesiastical instructors, are higher critics and rely on science and the wisdom of men to lead them to higher things, but I observe that they do not reach great heights."

18

"Yes, John, often have I propounded to myself the question: Why should a man call himself a minister or a doctor of divinity, claiming to be a servant of God, and never attempting even to instruct the people as to the meaning of the Scriptures? Probably it is because he does not understand the Scriptures himself; but he should not pretend to teach them. The minister at the seminary appeared to be quite popular with almost all who attended his church meetings, and the attendants of his social gatherings spoke many flattering words about him and to him; but I must say that often I have felt so out of place at those so-called 'church services and social gatherings' that I have wanted to run away that I might be alone and meditate upon what our parents have taught us in our homes. From what I have learned it appears that the seminaries and colleges have practically forgotten God, and this includes the ministers and theological teachers. As a result of such teaching almost all of the students have become agnostics or infidels."

Later the character John introduces Eunice to Rutherford's book (it appears that the Children book quotes from Rutherford's books extensively and there is an illustration of the two adults reading them). The Children book says the following.

"I would like to devote some of the time during the months that immediately follow to our studies together. I have come into possession of a number of books, all published by the same publishing society, which claim to be of great aid in the study of the Bible. We have both studied the Bible some, but

there is much for us to learn."

Chapter 2 says the following.

'In these latter days the colleges teach evolution concerning man, his creation, and his development, and ignore entirely the Word of God. They are wise in their own conceits, and concerning such the Lord in his Word says: "He taketh the wise in their own craft-

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iness; and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. They meet with darkness in the daytime, and grope in the noonday as in the night." (Job 5:13,14) "The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them?" — Jeremiah 8:9."These scriptures, written long ago, certainly and accurately describe the conditions that exist in the colleges today," said John to Eunice. "There is scarcely a professor in the college where I attended that has any faith whatsoever in God and the Bible. They teach all the young men and young women to ignore God and the Bible. Recently I noticed in the Literary Digest that a poll had been taken of the preachers in the United States and a large majority of them are evolutionists, deny the inspiration of the Scriptures, and yet claim to be ministers of the gospel."

"Certainly, John," said Eunice. "This proves how wonderfully we have been favored by the Lord in giving us parents who have taught us from our youth up to have confidence in God and in the Bible, which is His Word. Without faith it is impossible to please God, as it is written in the Scriptures."

"That is true, Eunice, and you are a woman of true and genuine faith. Seeing

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that the professors and other teachers in the schools have ignored the Bible and teach that man is a creature of evolution, I suggest that in our next study we give consideration to the Bible teaching concerning the origin of man and the course that men have taken, and learn just why the present miserable conditions exist amongst the peoples and nations of the earth." 'Chapter 9 says the following.

'Generally those of the world who are parents desire to provide their children with a college education and a training in religion, commerce, and politics, with the ability to make money and shine in the world. Good that is enduring does not result from such worldly teaching. It is of far greater importance to the child to teach it God's Word, that it may gain knowledge, wisdom and understanding, which lead to endless blessings: "How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!" (Proverbs 16:16) "Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it." — Proverbs 8:10,11. He who follows the course of religion, politics and commerce usually ends his career in sorrow.'

Chapter 10 says the following.

'Satan knows that his time is short, and therefore he is desperately trying to turn all persons, including the children, against God. (Revelation 12:12,17) Therefore Satan influences public officials and others to compel little children to indulge in idolatrous practices by bowing down to some image or thing, such as saluting flags and hailing men, and which is in direct violation of God's commandment. (Exodus 20:1-5) That is why in the last few years rules are made and enforced in the public schools compelling children of the Jonadabs, who are in a covenant to do God's will, to indulge in the idolatrous practice of flag-saluting and hailing men. It is the influence of that subtle foe, the Devil, that has brought about this state of affairs, and now Satan's agents cause great persecution to be brought upon the parents and the children who insist on obeying the commandments of God.'

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

The WT and the JWs teach re-creation of the body (with Jehovah God instilling into the new body a copy of the mind of the person who had died). The WT even explicitly says so in at least one of their books.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

Thanks redvip2000. Based upon your information I did some checking and I found the web page of http://blog.rongarret.info/2020/05/a-review-of-john-sanfords-genetic.html and the one at https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/gen_entropy/ . It is worth reading.

I would like know though where I can see Sanford's book debated point by point on numerous points, rather than just for the points mentioned in the articles which which the above links to them. redvip2000 what source do you have for that?

It is disappointing that in the USA so many adult humans still are convinced of non-evolutionary creationism (primarily young Earth creationism). A huge part of that is due to the influence of superstitions heavily taught by some religions (such as fundamentalist Christianity). The USA is advanced in many ways, but when it comes to the considerable percentage of the USA adult human population which reject macroevolution, the USA is sadly very backward. Outdated religious teachings have too strong of a hold on much of the human population of the USA.

Regarding polling numbers on this topic, what https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/how-many-creationists-are-there-in-america/ says is interesting. One of the things it points out is the effect of the wording of questions upon the polling results. It indicates that a higher percentage of the population consider evolution to true, than what most polls about the topic reveal. It is that is true, then that is encouraging to me regarding the percentage of the population which considers evolution a fact.

The blog article says the following.

"These findings are in keeping with arguments by sociologists of religion that highly religious Americans may feel conflicted about saying humans have evolved, unless they are able to clarify that they also believe God had a hand in the development of life. Indeed, the subset of people who respond differently to the two survey approaches consists mainly of those who believe that God or a higher power played a role in human evolution. For example, nearly all white evangelical Protestants who say humans have evolved—whether in a branched-choice or single-question format—also say God had a role in human evolution.

...

Considered together, the experiments illustrate the importance of testing multiple ways of asking about evolution. For some people, views about the origins and development of human life are bound up with deeply held religious beliefs. Pew Research Center’s goal in designing questions on this topic is to allow respondents to share their thoughts about both the scientific theory of evolution and whether God played a role in the creation and development of life on Earth—and to do so in a way that does not force respondents to choose between science and religion. Indeed, the data show that a sizable share of Americans believe both that life on Earth has evolved over time and that God played some role in the evolutionary process."

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

I regret saying in the above post the following: "(young Earth creationist apologists are known to do such - it is like a game of wack a mole)". That is because it was not relevant in the context I used it in. Also the name of the game is apparently spelled "Whac-A-Mole" instead of wack a mole.

47

The Evidence of Human Evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger

by Disillusioned JW in

despite the wt's and young earth creationists' teachings against human evolution (namely macroevolution from non-humans) being a reality, the evidence of human evolution keeps getting stronger and stronger.. consider for example two science news articles and one other science article, each pertaining to the fossil that is nicknamed "little foot".

below are links to three science articles, listed in order of the articles from oldest to newest (except i don't see a date for one of the articles).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2187639-exclusive-controversial-skeleton-may-be-a-new-species-of-early-human/.

Disillusioned JW

Readers,

I am impressed that Little Foot's legs were longer than her arms, in contrast to those of Lucy. I am also impressed that Little Foot's species was a better walker than a number of Australopithecus species (possibly including Lucy's).

The features of Little Foot relative to those of Lucy do not pose a problem for evolution theory. Scientists, to my knowledge, are not claiming that Lucy's species evolved from Little Foot's species. Instead of evolving from Little Foot's species, Lucy's species could have evolved from a species which coexisted (for a period of time) with Little Foot's species, or from a species which evolved from a species which had coexisted (for a period of time) with Little Foot's species. Evolution proceeds in multiple directions, and largely as an adaptation to the local environment. In one environment having the anatomy of Lucy could have been more advantageous than having the anatomy of Little Foot. Whereas in a different environment the opposite could have been true. For example, monkeys and chimpanzees are better adapted/suited to living in their tree top environment (and to climbing tree limbs and walking on tree limbs) than humans are of living in the same environment (and to climbing tree limbs and walking on tree limbs), but humans are better adapted/suited to walking on land than are monkeys and chimpanzees.

Though biological evolution started with life which already existed, theories (or hypotheses) of chemical evolution (including abiogenesis) deal with how life could have come into existence from non-life. Considerable progress has been made in learning how that could have happened, though much more needs to be learned. Furthermore, according to evolution theory the first cellular life to exist on planet Earth was very likely far less complex than the simplest cellular life which currently exists on Earth. Biological evolution does deal with (instead of avoiding) the idea of what the earliest type of cellular life on Earth might have been; and it also deals with what precellular types of early life might have been. It does not ignore those issues.

Regarding the idea of irreducible complexity, all proposed examples of such have been disproved by some scientists (though a number of proponents of irreducible complexity disagree with the claim). Evolution can take a biological part that serves one function and then later use if for another function. Later changes in the part can evolve to become better at doing the new function than was originally the case. Regarding the idea of the mousetrap, scientists have shown that if certain parts are removed from the mouse trap the device can serve a different function - one such function is as a spit wad shooter. In fact the device is far better as a spit wad shooter if certain parts are removed from the mouse trap.

I could continue to address each of Sea Breeze's points one by one, but I don't want to take the time to do so, since there other things I want to do with the free time of my life. Likewise if I address each of his/hers current points on this topic, the person will likely bring up more points (young Earth creationist apologists are known to do such - it is like a game of wack a mole). As a result I prefer to refer inquiring open minds to various books which already address the claims made by creationists and proponents of intelligent design. As result, if I refrain from refuting future claims of Sea Breeze pertaining to evolution, that does not necessarily mean I don't know how to refute those claims (nor does it mean I can't find answers which refute those claims).

The following are some books I recommend for inquiring open minds who wish to know what answers scientists have in refutation of the claims of creationists and proponents of intelligent design. They also have scientific explanations in support of chemical evolution and biological evolution. These books are ones which I read (at least in part) to answer my own questions and to see how well abiogenesis and biological evolution stand up to the claims of their critics and to make sure if my conviction of philosophical naturalism is firmly grounded (in regards to the subject of how the various kinds of life came to exist). A number of them also address supposed chicken and egg problems.

- Creation: How Science is Reinventing Itself, by Adam Rutherford

- Why Darwin Matters, by Michael Shermer

- Only A Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul, by Kenneth R. Miller

- "DECODING The Language Of God: Can A Scientist Really Be A Believer? A Geneticist Responds To Francis Collins", by George C. Cunningham, MD, MPH

- God, the Devil, and Darwin: A Critique of Intelligent Design Theory, by Niall Shanks (see https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/0195161998.001.0001/acprof-9780195161991 )

- "Why Evolution Is True" by Jerry A. Coyne

- "Evolution and the Myth of Creationism: A Basic Guide to the Facts in the Evolution Debate", by Tim M. Berra

There are also other books I read on this topic, and also science magazine articles I read on the topic, but at the moment I don't recall the names of those books and articles.

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More lies from fake news.

by mickbobcat in

news is broadcasting that death valley is getting close to breaking a record.

the highest air temp recorded is 134 but that was in 1913 way before the huge spike in co2.

now its 130 and its the end of the world.

Disillusioned JW

Deserts are known to have high extremes for their low temperature of the day and their high temperature of the day. I think it is due to them having very little vegetation. Vegetation has a moderating effect. Vegetation can provide shade from sunshine and thus cooling, including cooling of the ground. It can also provide cooling when moisture evaporates from the vegetation. At night it can probably help retain some of the heat from the ground, by acting as insulation. Likewise oceans have a moderating effect on the temperature of the air on the shore relative to the air temperature further inland.

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Serious bible students questions about the bible

by TTWSYF in

many jws (and others) are serious about their biblical studies, but don't ask the right questions.

in basic journalism one learns to ask the right questions which in my years here, i've never hear asked.. who, what, where, by what help, by whose help, why, how and when.

these are all basic questions when researching anything that you want to write an article or paper on what ever related subject.. who wrote/created the bible?.

Disillusioned JW

What examples are there of the OT Bible writers making use of the works of Plato and the Iliad? Are you referring to NT Gospel writers?